[ekerazha]

jacmoe, on 28 December 2012 - 05:51 PM, said:

It might amuse Ekerazha to learn that I've now switched to using Bootstrap.

That's nice because I'm currently using Foundation

Bootstrap looks better by default and it has more widgets/components. Moreover, it still natively supports IE7.

However, I think Foundation is more bleeding edge than Bootstrap (i.e. it took forever for Bootstrap to become responsive). The upcoming Foundation 4.0 is going to be mobile-first.

[jacmoe]

Amusing!

Well, I agree with you - the grid is a lot better in Foundation. And I'm not done using it.
YiiBooster (and YiiBoilerplate) is my main reason for using Bootstrap.
But I stopped being against it, and that's progress, isn't it?

[ekerazha]

jacmoe, on 29 December 2012 - 04:36 AM, said:

But I stopped being against it, and that's progress, isn't it?

Sure.

And I think you could like this: http://reuze.me
It can work with both Bootstrap and Foundation.

[jacmoe]

That's really great!

I'm keeping tabs on that project. Very useful.
Especially considering that I tend to forget to use the HTML5 markup.

[chuntley]

I would rather Yii have a simple CSS framework, like Blueprint (but not Blueprint!). Just a simple framework with simple elegant Yii-styles for the default application. While Bootstrap and Foundation are nice, I always have to hack away at them to build my end product. I would rather build up from the default application (like with Yii 1.1).

[ekerazha]

You can customize Foundation or Bootstrap just like you can customize the obsolete Blueprint.

[chuntley]

ekerazha, on 10 January 2013 - 04:58 AM, said:

You can customize Foundation or Bootstrap just like you can customize the obsolete Blueprint.

Yes I understand you can customize them, but that is not my point. With so many pre-made styles, buttons, etc etc, you end up having to hack away at them to end up with a unique looking website. Where with something like Blueprint, it gives you a clean slate to start with that you then build up from. A simple grid system (a currently supported responsive one) matches the Yii philosophy much more than an overly bloated template framework.

[ekerazha]

chuntley, on 17 January 2013 - 11:15 AM, said:

Yes I understand you can customize them, but that is not my point. With so many pre-made styles, buttons, etc etc, you end up having to hack away at them to end up with a unique looking website. Where with something like Blueprint, it gives you a clean slate to start with that you then build up from. A simple grid system (a currently supported responsive one) matches the Yii philosophy much more than an overly bloated template framework.

I really can't understand this point. The fact that Blueprint looks ugly by default and lacks components doesn't make it a better choice. Both Bootstrap and Foundation are modular and fully customizable.

[ekerazha]

Some other alternatives:

http://www.maxmert.com
http://ink.sapo.pt

[rAWTAZ]

This discussion seem endless.

Bottom line #1: Everyone have their own preference regarding a) whether to use a CSS framework in the first place.
Bottom line #2: Everyone have their own preference regarding a) whether to use a CSS framework in the first place.

Conclusion: Whatever you do, dont tightly couple/integrate some CSS framework in the default webapp.

My preference would be that you only provide minimal and "manual" CSS, so that one does not have to rip out a lot of things to get rid of whatever is the standard. I am always ripping out blueprint from my new webapps.

[ekerazha]

rAWTAZ, on 18 January 2013 - 07:32 AM, said:

My preference would be that you only provide minimal and "manual" CSS, so that one does not have to rip out a lot of things to get rid of whatever is the standard.

Yeah, we all need to reinvent a square wheel

[rAWTAZ]

ekerazha, on 18 January 2013 - 07:41 AM, said:

Yeah, we all need to reinvent a square wheel

I don't understand your point, sorry. But I am not saying we should spend time reinventing stuff, all I'm saying is that this long discussion seems to focus on which framework to ship by default, and that maybe that is not what should be done in the first place. Perhaps it is better to not ship anything but minimal CSS that is easy to rip out if needed. It has already been mentioned that it would be great if Yii's default CSS is not one specific framework but easily changed between various frameworks.

[ekerazha]

rAWTAZ, on 18 January 2013 - 07:49 AM, said:

I don't understand your point, sorry. But I am not saying we should spend time reinventing stuff, all I'm saying is that this long discussion seems to focus on which framework to ship by default, and that maybe that is not what should be done in the first place. Perhaps it is better to not ship anything but minimal CSS that is easy to rip out if needed. It has already been mentioned that it would be great if Yii's default CSS is not one specific framework but easily changed between various frameworks.

Yii already uses a CSS framework, it's Blueprint and it's obsolete. Bootstrap and Foundation can be "minimal" as they are modular. Using some "custom stylesheet" is like reinventing the square wheel, it's just another CSS template.

[rAWTAZ]

ekerazha, on 18 January 2013 - 08:09 AM, said:

Yii already uses a CSS framework, it's Blueprint and it's obsolete. Bootstrap and Foundation can be "minimal" as they are modular. Using some "custom stylesheet" is like reinventing the square wheel, it's just another CSS template.

I did not say custom stylesheet, just minimal stuff. Maybe you haven't done that in a while and forgot how clean and non-intrusive it can be.

[jacmoe]

The problem is that, unless Yii forces us to use either SASS or LESS, it can't be independent of a CSS framework. That would require semantic css.

[ekerazha]

rAWTAZ, on 18 January 2013 - 08:11 AM, said:

I did not say custom stylesheet, just minimal stuff. Maybe you haven't done that in a while and forgot how clean and non-intrusive it can be.

That stuff requires a custom stylesheet.

jacmoe, on 18 January 2013 - 08:16 AM, said:

The problem is that, unless Yii forces us to use either SASS or LESS, it can't be independent of a CSS framework.

Exactly.

[chuntley]

ekerazha, on 18 January 2013 - 07:21 AM, said:

I really can't understand this point. The fact that Blueprint looks ugly by default and lacks components doesn't make it a better choice. Both Bootstrap and Foundation are modular and fully customizable.

Bootstrap and Foundation: Premade cookie-cutter website and styles. To make it unique, you have to hack away at it. This is 100% against Yii's philosophy.

Blueprint: Grid framework, no other styling other than a CSS reset

Ugly styles are the entire point of something like Blueprint. That way you get to build up from it, making a completely unique application. Boostrap and Foundation are monsters. Have you ever tried to make a completely unique looking website using them (and I'm not just saying changing colors)? They are great for what they are, but are absolutely out of the question for people working with unique designs created before choosing a CSS/javascript framework.

rAWTAZ has the right idea, it is exactly what Yii should be providing and would be the most useful the most amount of developers. Some basic, responsive CSS.

ekerazha, you are going to have a hard time convincing everyone that Bootstrap or Foundation is minimal when Bootstrap alone runs off a 6,000 line CSS file and 2,000 line JS file. You can turn of features to make it minimal in the frontend, but what runs in the background is anything but.

[ekerazha]

chuntley, on 18 January 2013 - 08:45 AM, said:

Bootstrap and Foundation: Premade cookie-cutter website and styles. To make it unique, you have to hack away at it. This is 100% against Yii's philosophy.

Customizing source code is not a "hack". Moreover, Yii itself is a framework. Probably there's another chuntley in the world who is saying

Yii and Symfony: Premade cookie-cutter website and code. To make it unique, you have to hack away at it.

That's hilarious.

Quote

Blueprint: Grid framework, no other styling other than a CSS reset

Nope. Blueprint also has its own style.

Quote

Ugly styles are the entire point of something like Blueprint. That way you get to build up from it, making a completely unique application. Boostrap and Foundation are monsters. Have you ever tried to make a completely unique looking website using them (and I'm not just saying changing colors)? They are great for what they are, but are absolutely out of the question for people working with unique designs created before choosing a CSS/javascript framework.

Yeah I already know the "ugly by design" point of view: http://community.myb....html#pid664339

Flash News: you can build your unique style also if it is seemly by default.

Bootstrap and Foundation are modular and easy to customize. Still, you start from a solid boilerplate.

Quote

rAWTAZ has the right idea, it is exactly what Yii should be providing and would be the most useful the most amount of developers. Some basic, responsive CSS.

Some custom stylesheet which is less solid and tested than already available platforms.

Quote

ekerazha, you are going to have a hard time convincing everyone that Bootstrap or Foundation is minimal when Bootstrap alone runs off a 6,000 line CSS file and 2,000 line JS file. You can turn of features to make it minimal in the frontend, but what runs in the background is anything but.

Really, it's not an opinion:
http://twitter.githu.../customize.html
http://foundation.zu...omizeFoundation

[jacmoe]

Take a look at Lavish: http://www.lavishbootstrap.com/

I have to agree: Bootstrap, and Foundation, is definitely customizeable.

In fact, in my opinion, it's as easy as customizing Blueprint, or anything else.

A big point in favor of Bootstrap (and it's 'rival') is that there is a huge community, and therefore there are tons of options for making it look unique.

[chuntley]

ekerazha, hacking away at source code, in the meaning I used it in, is to cut away at it piece by piece. When you have something that does way to much for you, you end up having to take pieces of it away. Your arrogance is really detrimental to this discussion.