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wiki yii delete Rate Topic: ***** 1 Votes

#21 User is offline   ekerazha 

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Posted 07 February 2010 - 09:10 AM

Somebody created the article again ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yii ), so I've added a "version history" table :)
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#22 User is offline   imehesz 

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Posted 07 February 2010 - 12:32 PM

View Postekerazha, on 07 February 2010 - 09:10 AM, said:

Somebody created the article again ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yii ), so I've added a "version history" table :)


added the podcast, also

--iM
It’s done, the great act of creation.
The maker rests. The wheel’s in motion.
-- Imre Madách

check out Yii Theme Factory at http://yii.themefactory.net
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#23 User is offline   ekerazha 

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Posted 07 February 2010 - 12:39 PM

View Postimehesz, on 07 February 2010 - 12:32 PM, said:

added the podcast, also

--iM


Refactored into "External links" ;)

Also, added some "History" info.
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#24 User is offline   Mike 

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Posted 07 February 2010 - 12:41 PM

Nice job, guys. :)

Shouldn't the project homepage also be mentioned under external links?
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#25 User is offline   ekerazha 

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Posted 07 February 2010 - 12:46 PM

View PostMike, on 07 February 2010 - 12:41 PM, said:

Nice job, guys. :)

Shouldn't the project homepage also be mentioned under external links?

Added ;)
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#26 User is offline   imehesz 

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Posted 07 February 2010 - 07:24 PM

oh man, they already put a warning on the top:

Quote

This article may not meet the notability guidelines for products and services. Please help to establish notability by adding reliable, secondary sources about the topic. If notability cannot be established, the article is likely to be merged, redirected, or deleted. (January 2010)

It’s done, the great act of creation.
The maker rests. The wheel’s in motion.
-- Imre Madách

check out Yii Theme Factory at http://yii.themefactory.net
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#27 User is offline   ekerazha 

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Posted 08 February 2010 - 02:36 AM

It was already there, but this time there's a new argument, they kept the Kohana article and there are no reasons to keep Kohana and delete Yii.
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#28 User is offline   ekerazha 

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Posted 14 February 2010 - 03:58 AM

Again...
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#29 User is offline   imehesz 

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Posted 22 February 2010 - 02:24 PM

and it's gone again ... IMHO I think let's wait until we have at least 1 book in our hand about Yii and that might change things on Wikipedia ...

--iM
It’s done, the great act of creation.
The maker rests. The wheel’s in motion.
-- Imre Madách

check out Yii Theme Factory at http://yii.themefactory.net
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#30 User is offline   ekerazha 

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Posted 24 February 2010 - 09:13 AM

I like coherency so I've nominated the Kohana article for deletion again (at least Yii had a couple of articles published from http://www.phparch.com), but Kohana fans do create single-purpose accounts just to vote for Kohana inside deletion discussions.

The spamming behaviour of the Kohana community is so pathetic.
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#31 User is offline   Nodren 

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Posted 25 February 2010 - 05:40 PM

View Postekerazha, on 24 February 2010 - 09:13 AM, said:

I like coherency so I've nominated the Kohana article for deletion again (at least Yii had a couple of articles published from http://www.phparch.com), but Kohana fans do create single-purpose accounts just to vote for Kohana inside deletion discussions.

The spamming behaviour of the Kohana community is so pathetic.


I'm sorry you feel that way about the Kohana community, but please note, the Kohana developers(of which I am one) do not in any way endorse such behavior, infact we encourage other framework discussions on our forums.

To that end, we had nothing to do with the deletion of your Wikipedia article, we also had little to do with our own article staying there(I think one maybe two developers commented on it but most of the debates were done either by wikipedia editors or Kohana users themselves). I understand your passionate about your framework of choice, as is the Kohana community.

Let's all try and remain civil and not degrade this to a 2nd grade "No my daddy can beat up your daddy" bickering match. Kohana Team have no ill will towards the Yii Framework team and wishes them the best at their efforts of providing more options to php developers out there.
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#32 User is offline   Mike 

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Posted 26 February 2010 - 03:35 AM

We shouldn't take these wikipedia things too serious. By that in no way i want to devaluate ekerazha's work here. He surely did a great job and put a lot of energy in this. So ekerazha, i also understand your disappointment and why you might be a little upset.

But i think, we should just take some time and wait. If Yii becomes more popular, books will follow and more "wiki-approved" sources will pop up. If it doesn't - well then we have to accept that it's not a worth a wiki entry.

I also understand the wiki people - wikipedia is not a marketing instrument for making things more popular.

@Nodren.
Word! :)

I like your opinion - we're not fighting a war here. Even though some competition between frameworks can be a healthy thing for a framework'sprogress. ;) But i don't have bad feelings for any other framework community. It's merely a matter of which tool someone prefers. Not more.
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#33 User is offline   ekerazha 

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Posted 26 February 2010 - 06:40 AM

View PostNodren, on 25 February 2010 - 05:40 PM, said:

I'm sorry you feel that way about the Kohana community, but please note, the Kohana developers(of which I am one) do not in any way endorse such behavior, infact we encourage other framework discussions on our forums.

To that end, we had nothing to do with the deletion of your Wikipedia article, we also had little to do with our own article staying there(I think one maybe two developers commented on it but most of the debates were done either by wikipedia editors or Kohana users themselves). I understand your passionate about your framework of choice, as is the Kohana community.

Let's all try and remain civil and not degrade this to a 2nd grade "No my daddy can beat up your daddy" bickering match. Kohana Team have no ill will towards the Yii Framework team and wishes them the best at their efforts of providing more options to php developers out there.


I don't have anything against Kohana, but I'd like a coherent treatment inside Wikipedia. I'm not saying Yii should be included while Kohana should not, I'm saying if Yii is not included, then every other article equal-or-less notable than the Yii article shouldn't be included (and this comprises Kohana). Simple coherence.
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#34 User is offline   RedSpy 

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Posted 22 April 2010 - 01:18 AM

Hi.

I recently started trying Yii, and I was astonished that all articles about the Yii Framework were deleted in the English and German Wikipedia more than once. These hyperactive Wikipedia admins even removed Yii from the Comparison of web application frameworks. :(

However, the conclusion to nominate competitor frameworks for deletion, too, is counterproductive and utterly childish. (What comes around goes around.) Instead, you should:

  • Try to write an objective article about the Yii Framework, not an advertising text. Citing printed articles about Yii with references might be helpful, mentioning notable projects or companies in moderation, too. For an article to be balanced, it should include a section with criticism or contra indicators regarding the usage of Yii, for example a lack of knowledge in object-oriented and event-driven programming.
  • Participate in the deletion discussion if the article should be nominated again. Most Wikipedia admins are pedants, not programmers, and even if they are, they most likely have distrust and antipathy regarding everything involving PHP. They most likely think something like: "Oh, gosh, yet another bunch of PHP kids reinventing the wheel." They should be convinced that not naming it "PHP on Rails" is because it is more than that and doesn't mean that it isn't the best adaptation of "Ruby on Rails" for PHP yet.
  • Address the advocates for deletion directly, show them that there are about 5000 active programmers in this community who care about Yii. Try to be very friendly, reasonable and polite, like I tried to be ...
  • Try to follow the Wikipedia etiquette: Use your primary Wikipedia account (no sock puppet or IP address), sign contributions to the discussion page with "--~~~~", try to use correct spelling and formatting, don't drink and write, ...


I really like to see Yii and its community to prosper, and I think that this is not a question of having a Wikipedia article or not. However, some people might turn their back on Yii before taking a closer look because it is not mentioned in Wikipedia. So creating a compliant article might be a nice leisure activity.

Greetings,
RedSpy
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#35 User is offline   ekerazha 

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Posted 23 April 2010 - 04:24 PM

View PostRedSpy, on 22 April 2010 - 01:18 AM, said:

even removed Yii from the Comparison of web application frameworks

While a proper article must be WP:GNG compliant, a mention inside another article (like that) doesn't have to be WP:GNG compliant, so you can try to add Yii to the comparison. Maybe it could be removed according to WP:TRIVIA or WP:WEIGHT, but it's not very clear. I know this because I'm trying to remove some mentions from other articles.

Quote

However, the conclusion to nominate competitor frameworks for deletion, too, is counterproductive and utterly childish. (What comes around goes around.) Instead, you should:

  • Try to write an objective article about the Yii Framework, not an advertising text. Citing printed articles about Yii with references might be helpful, mentioning notable projects or companies in moderation, too. For an article to be balanced, it should include a section with criticism or contra indicators regarding the usage of Yii, for example a lack of knowledge in object-oriented and event-driven programming.


That's not the point. The point is: if Yii is non-notable (because it doesn't have multiple, reliable sources like magazines, books etc.) it's correct to remove the article about Yii. If other products are non-notable, it's correct to remove their articles too. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a global advertisement system.
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#36 User is offline   RedSpy 

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Posted 23 April 2010 - 07:16 PM

Hi ekerazha,

Are you sure you read my objection on TNXMan's take page? It seems you didn't.

View Postekerazha, on 23 April 2010 - 04:24 PM, said:

While a proper article must be WP:GNG compliant, a mention inside another article (like that) doesn't have to be WP:GNG compliant, so you can try to add Yii to the comparison.

Please take a look at TNXMan's reply to my objection. He insists that Yii needs to have its own article before it may be included in the comparison matrix.

Quote

The point is: if Yii is non-notable (because it doesn't have multiple, reliable sources like magazines, books etc.) it's correct to remove the article about Yii.

Yii already has notions in reputable magazines, but nobody cared to research them and use proper references in the article.

Quote

If other products are non-notable, it's correct to remove their articles too.

If you think that the other project is about as notable as Yii, then denunciating the other project's Wikipedia article is devious. Yii is notable, but Wikipedia admins failed to notice. Making other notable projects subject to the same misconception does not help anyone. (BTW: Who was ever talking about a "product"?)

Regards,
RedSpy
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#37 User is offline   imehesz 

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Posted 23 April 2010 - 10:38 PM

hello guys,

As far as I know there are 2 magazine/book references so far (and hopefully more are coming)

http://www.phparch.c...f-phparchitect/

and

http://www.packtpub....-table-contents

In this last one Yii is mentioned as one of the TOP 5 (Expert) PHP tools/frameworks ...

I think we're gonna have a Wikipedia page pretty soon :) muhahAHaHAHA

--iM
It’s done, the great act of creation.
The maker rests. The wheel’s in motion.
-- Imre Madách

check out Yii Theme Factory at http://yii.themefactory.net
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#38 User is offline   ekerazha 

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Posted 24 April 2010 - 02:46 AM

View PostRedSpy, on 23 April 2010 - 07:16 PM, said:

Hi ekerazha,

Are you sure you read my objection on TNXMan's take page? It seems you didn't.

Dude, I joined every AfD discussion about Yii and I'm also the guy who started to remove the products without an article from "Comparison of web application frameworks". I perfectly know what arguments are valid and what arguments are not valid... and sorry, your arguments don't work inside Wikipedia.

Quote

Please take a look at TNXMan's reply to my objection. He insists that Yii needs to have its own article before it may be included in the comparison matrix.

Take a look at this: http://en.wikipedia....troller_pattern

I'm trying to remove two products from a list (according to WP:WEIGHT), but you'll see it's not so easy because while a complete article requires notability (according to WP:GNG), there isn't any policy which says that a mention inside another article needs the notability requirement. WP:WEIGHT should require reliable sources, but it's not so straight.

Quote

Yii already has notions in reputable magazines, but nobody cared to research them and use proper references in the article.


If you think that the other project is about as notable as Yii, then denunciating the other project's Wikipedia article is devious. Yii is notable, but Wikipedia admins failed to notice. Making other notable projects subject to the same misconception does not help anyone. (BTW: Who was ever talking about a "product"?)

Regards,
RedSpy

If you joined the AfD discussion (like me), you'd know I tried to find every reliable source about Yii. The only reliable source was phpArchitect but you usually need at least 2 reliable sources, so the article was deleted.

There isn't any misconception, I think you don't fully understand how Wikipedia works:

>= 2 reliable sources (magazines, books etc.) -> notable -> article OK
< 2 reliable sources -> non-notable -> article DELETED

There's nothing to add.

Please read this: http://en.wikipedia....eliable_sources

(And yes, php frameworks are "products")
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#39 User is offline   ekerazha 

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Posted 24 April 2010 - 03:03 AM

View Postimehesz, on 23 April 2010 - 10:38 PM, said:

hello guys,

As far as I know there are 2 magazine/book references so far (and hopefully more are coming)

http://www.phparch.c...f-phparchitect/

This is 1 (already considered).

Quote

and

http://www.packtpub....-table-contents

In this last one Yii is mentioned as one of the TOP 5 (Expert) PHP tools/frameworks ...

I think we're gonna have a Wikipedia page pretty soon :) muhahAHaHAHA

--iM

This could be the 2nd (yeah!). When we had the last AfD discussion, this source didn't exist (it's newer, March 2010). Well... it seems just a paragraph between dozens of paragraphs, it doesn't seem a very exhaustive mention (but I don't have the book), so I don't give you any guarantee... however you could try. If you create the Yii article again, add both these sources/references and don't write it like an advertisement, it should be neutral and objective.
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#40 User is offline   RedSpy 

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Posted 24 April 2010 - 11:36 PM

Hi.

There might be more reliable sources and indicators for the relevance of Yii to consider, for example:


Greetings,
RedSpy
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