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Embedded CSS Framework Blueprint ?

#61 User is offline   ekerazha 

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Posted 27 April 2012 - 06:04 AM

Metro style jQuery Mobile theme from Microsoft

http://blogs.technet...ery-mobile.aspx
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#62 User is offline   rapidtransit440 

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Posted 11 May 2012 - 06:52 PM

I thought I'll add my $.02, I'm tinkering with Foundation right now, I have to say, its good but not great too much reliance on Javascript and though rare where someone doesn't have it enabled Orbit and Drop Downs don't work, why are they trying to reinvent the wheel when they could have adapted Son of Suckerfish and CodaSlider, plus there is inconsistency. I've found guides etc even the documentation reference a global.css file that I don't have.
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#63 User is offline   SapporoGuy 

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Posted 12 May 2012 - 01:36 AM

Jumping into the fire fight.

Blueprint, 960, bootstrap -> tomorrow ???

Each have had a share of time jn the spot light.
Today, bootstrap has a huge following because of RAD. Slap in a CSS framework because it works and then tweak it when hits and usage are high enough to support proper UI development.

Most projects are on timeframe and a budget. Bootstrap falls into place because it's "twitter" supported and a design/theme that people are hooked on at the moment. XP and OSX had there share of theme/design popularity at the time too. Lol so did groupon.

Going into the numbers arguement. Git forks are misleading. If your project is RAD based and you are using git you'll obviously fork bootstrap so that you have easy "bookmark" access.

Forks and code submission are not the same thing.

I've taken several looks at bootstrap and I always walk away. The design also makes me feel locked in to a twitter look:( I've gone through about 20-30 CSS frameworks and never can seem to like just "1".

I still need to look at foundation in detail. I just checked yaml and don't like the naming, the license nor how it doesn't work on my iPhone.

I'm going to side with jacmoe's arguement for:
1- Separation out of the core and for it being an extension
2- create a Yii based version

1.) because I like choice :)
2.) although Yii should focus on the core I think that a few members could form a sub set of Yii and focus on a CSS framework that could stand up against other frameworks and actually fit better into the core directly and yet still be a general purpose download like bootstrap

As a reference, I built a CSS framework using several components from different projects. When I came across bootstrap and almost cried! Hours upon hours of research and building were lost until I looked at what bootstrap looked like under the hood. Phew a sigh of relief! I'm not a guru nor can I say my code is good but bootstrap would have required a similar amount of work to fit my needs!

I'm also against using jquery to "cheat" CSS. Because its added overhead.

The question I have, is there a real interest in building both side os this? The code side and a default theme that designers would be willing to work with?
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#64 User is offline   ekerazha 

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Posted 12 May 2012 - 05:05 AM

View PostSapporoGuy, on 12 May 2012 - 01:36 AM, said:

1- Separation out of the core and for it being an extension


You need a default template for pages generated by gii etc. So you need a template into the core. And the current Blueprint-based template is ugly.

Actually the best alternatives seem to be:
*) Bootstrap 2
*) Reinventing the wheel
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#65 User is offline   schmunk 

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Posted 12 May 2012 - 07:30 AM

Bootstrap 2 - alea iacta est :)
Phundament - Yii Application Boilerplate with composer support
Fork on github

Follow phundament on Twitter

DevSystem: Mac OS X 10.7 - PHP 5.3 - Apache2 - Yii 1.1 / trunk - Firefox or Safari
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#66 User is offline   SapporoGuy 

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Posted 12 May 2012 - 11:04 AM

Ekerazha,
Wow! I admire your enthusiasm and support for bootstrap!

I never said you don't need a template. I said you don't need a CSS framework. ;)

The current demo design is just that a demo. However since you feel it is ugly why don't you provide several alternative designs? We all could then vote on 2 or 3 to choose :)

This would:
1.) prove that bootstrap is better
2.) help those of us with bad design skills
3.) allow Yii to have alternative choices for the user to start off with like WP does

I don't see were reinventing the wheel comes from. I'm more than willing to share my "CSS framework" which includes a simpler naming convention for buttons, easier to notice error messaging for forms and some other goodies out of the box. Of course it is based on html5boiler plate and 1140grid which provides mobile friendly margins which many css frameworks don't! Only problem is that it is a beta and doesnt provide some of the extras that bootstrap took from the jquery CSS framework.

Now if you will provide a design that bootstrap is willing to showcase along with Yii's name on their site; I'll support your cause 100% :)
By getting showcased at bootstrap will be a huge benefit for Yii that out weighs the opinions of us who don't find bootstrap as a better alternative!

Actually, do you have any designs based on bootstrap?
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#67 User is offline   ekerazha 

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Posted 12 May 2012 - 01:00 PM

View PostSapporoGuy, on 12 May 2012 - 11:04 AM, said:

Ekerazha,
Wow! I admire your enthusiasm and support for bootstrap!

Reinventing the wheel is fine too, until I'm not the guy who have to reinvent it and the wheel quality is at least good as the quality of Bootstrap 2.

Quote

I never said you don't need a template. I said you don't need a CSS framework. ;)

This would:
1.) prove that bootstrap is better
2.) help those of us with bad design skills
3.) allow Yii to have alternative choices for the user to start off with like WP does

Quote

Now if you will provide a design that bootstrap is willing to showcase along with Yii's name on their site; I'll support your cause 100% :)
By getting showcased at bootstrap will be a huge benefit for Yii that out weighs the opinions of us who don't find bootstrap as a better alternative!

Yii uses so many components etc. so that if you build a template, you implicitly build something which is a CSS framework if it is correctly structured or garbage if it isn't correctly structured.

Quote

The current demo design is just that a demo. However since you feel it is ugly why don't you provide several alternative designs? We all could then vote on 2 or 3 to choose :)

Just replace the current components with the equivalent Bootstrap 2 components. I won't provide any demo as my time is limited and this is why I use frameworks built by others (Yii and so on).

If you want a demo: http://www.yiiframew...sion/bootstrap/

Quote

I don't see were reinventing the wheel comes from. I'm more than willing to share my "CSS framework" which includes a simpler naming convention for buttons, easier to notice error messaging for forms and some other goodies out of the box. Of course it is based on html5boiler plate and 1140grid which provides mobile friendly margins which many css frameworks don't! Only problem is that it is a beta and doesnt provide some of the extras that bootstrap took from the jquery CSS framework.

If you want to share your work, we can see if it fits the purpose.

Quote

Actually, do you have any designs based on bootstrap?

NDA
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#68 User is offline   schmunk 

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Posted 12 May 2012 - 05:26 PM

View PostSapporoGuy, on 12 May 2012 - 11:04 AM, said:

Actually, do you have any designs based on bootstrap?


I got one...
In fact, the designer was just told, please use a 12 column 940px-grid and these are our first steps with yii-bootstrap and Phundament 3.
But it works very very well and Bootstrap is very easy to customize.

PS: Just kick out the black header bar ;)

Attached File(s)


Phundament - Yii Application Boilerplate with composer support
Fork on github

Follow phundament on Twitter

DevSystem: Mac OS X 10.7 - PHP 5.3 - Apache2 - Yii 1.1 / trunk - Firefox or Safari
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#69 User is offline   jacmoe 

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Posted 12 May 2012 - 05:50 PM

And that begs the question: why not simply use a 940px 12 column grid then? :)
Or maybe something a bit more modern, like the 1140px responsive grid?

Just because some guy from Twitter released Bootstrap doesn't make it a quality css framework IMO.

Blueprint is actually a saner choice because it doesn't try and be more than just a grid with some sane css reset thrown in.
Pair that with Sass/Compass, and it has everything you need.

I was pimping Foundation - as you probably know - but I am growing tired of the whole debate..
It's like Jehovah's Witnesses, Git Evangelists, RoR Preachers..

Look beyond the pretty packaging and you realize how easy it is to integrate your own chosen set of jQuery plugins with whatever framework you opt for.
"Less noise - more signal"
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#70 User is offline   SapporoGuy 

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Posted 12 May 2012 - 07:56 PM

@ schmuck
Nice design!
Yii really could use a few designs like that out of the box!

@ekerazha + bootstrap
Have you even looked at what is inside bootstrap?
Tried it on your phone? Even some of the showcase sites? Most of the sites I checked out don't even consider a 10pixel margin so letters get cut off and reading is pain, one reason I won't use bing!

I've literally gone through 15 CSS frameworks. Many I just but into the trash because they were half baked. 960, blueprint, bootstrap and possibly foundation (I haven't opened up the CSS yet) are pretty decent. However, reading your arguments for bootstrap you still will be missing features.

If you're interested, checkout sakuracart on git hub and you'll see what I've done. It's still a work in progress and I'd say the CSS part of is relatively on par with bootstrap for fancy boxes and dropdowns. Dig deep and you'll find a same form check and error outputs that bootstrap just does like normally and are not user intuitive. I still need to add in the cool push / pull features of blueprint that are handy at times.


@ bootstrap
If they're willing to feature And advertise Yii, I'll back and support the decision to move to bootstrap.
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#71 User is offline   ekerazha 

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 01:08 AM

@SapporoGuy
Sorry, there's nothing you can teach me about CSS, CSS frameworks etc. I follow this world since 15 years.
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#72 User is offline   SapporoGuy 

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 01:58 AM

Listen, I'm try to start a pissing match.

I'm just very curious,, as in specifics and not opinions,why bootstrap is the way to go.
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#73 User is offline   ekerazha 

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 02:32 AM

Have a good reading

http://www.yiiframew...tandardization/
http://www.yiiframew...-css-framework/

:)
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#74 User is offline   SapporoGuy 

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 02:40 AM

Omg!!!!

I'm "not" trying ... Sorry!!!!!
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#75 User is offline   ekerazha 

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 04:00 AM

Anyway... actually my proposal is to use Bootstrap 2 with Foundation 3 "Icon Fonts" ( http://www.zurb.com/...peek-icon-fonts ) instead of Glyphicons Free (used by Bootstrap and Foundation 2) mainly because of licensing reasons.
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#76 User is offline   SapporoGuy 

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 06:01 AM

Hmmmm ....
Something is majorly wrong here!
Why am I being forced into a CSS Framework to begin with?

What happens when I decide that I like something else better the next week?

Why is jquery even part of Yii?

I read 4 reasonably good solutions in the first link

I also read a lot of use XYZ and just switch out if you don't like it. This is wrong, you can't without basically redoing everything that XYZ did. This is lock in.

I'm on my phone so I'm NOT going to quote who said what.
Basically this made the most sense:
1.) unify all HTML under 1 umbrella incorporating "semantic" CSS naming convention
2.) jquery should be in a 3rd party/vendor location, it changes like every few months
3.) "Portlets", so that code can be broken down into manageable units
4.) each unit should be able to call the necessary J-love when needed. On the admin speed optimization is not necessarily that important
5.) mobile friendly, which means that the HTML is already a simple drop in piece that plays well in any area of a "grid" you put it.
6.) possible select function in the console when building an app to indicate what "CSS framework" you're using.

I agree that the admin UI and GUI needs Aamer "beatification" but not at the expense of having to be locked into what I hate horrible naming convention, ie xyz-gohere-upper2-randomword-123! Which is a major pet peeve I have with bootstrap andante others. Why can't they use simple sounding "semantically" understand names like, class = button right enter, or class = button error? Yeah, I like chaing my CSS :)

I'm also why isn't jquery's theme not being used? It already is a CSS framework, albeit minus the grid.

I don't like jquery mobile! It just adds a whole new layer of
Pain to learn ;) plus if not implemented completely and correctly you end with some cray navigation that becomes a nightmare!

Yii should allow flexibility for the theme but yet enforce a coherent and stable HTML base. Much like it does for php and MySQL. Which is why I'm in favor of the HTML that is autogenerated should come out as simple as possible so that I can theme it by just dropping in admin.css.

Should Yii come with a handsome and good looking theme? Doh! Of course!

Should I have to learn somebody else's CSS naming conventions? Not really. I'd live to say no but that is impossible since you still need a naming system for xyz grid location and xyz widget/portlet.


Hmmm, does anybody have a good idea for how things should be named "semantically"? I'm still arguing with myself and end up in a corner trapped because I want flexibility yet realize that something needs to be decided which means I loose flexibility :( ugh!
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#77 User is offline   jacmoe 

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 10:25 AM

OK.

How about using semantic.gs then?

It's powered by LESS/SCSS and can ship with Yii precompiled.

http://semantic.gs/

It is a grid, it's semantic (because of LESS/SCSS) and does not carry any additional garbage.

Another option is to simply keep Blueprint, but ship a precompiled Sass/Compass generated stylesheet.

That way we don't have to worry about replacing anything, we can ship a semantic css stylesheet with Yii, and everyone can easily swap it out for their favorite css framework.

Isn't that going to be a win-win?

Design has little to do with what css framework you pick.

The argument in favor of semantic.gs is that it has support for both Less and Sass.
Which is a good thing.
Bootstrap supports Less, Foundation supports Sass.
Semantic Grid System supports both. (It wins!)
"Less noise - more signal"
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#78 User is offline   ekerazha 

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 11:25 AM

semantic.gs is a grid system, it lacks everything else

Blueprint is obsolete
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#79 User is offline   jacmoe 

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 11:27 AM

View Postekerazha, on 13 May 2012 - 11:25 AM, said:

semantic.gs is a grid system, it lacks everything else

Exactly. That's the whole point.
"Less noise - more signal"
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#80 User is offline   ekerazha 

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 11:30 AM

View Postjacmoe, on 13 May 2012 - 11:27 AM, said:

Exactly. That's the whole point.


So your idea is to show raw html items (lists instead of menus etc.) wrapped into a semantic.gs grid?
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