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Embedded CSS Framework Blueprint ?

#21 User is offline   jacmoe 

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 01:47 PM

Since Foundation still has a better grid than Bootstrap, I'll choose the former over the latter any time.

That it doesn't bundle as many things as Bootstrap does is actually a good thing IMO.

Foundation does have menu - even with dropdown - and it's easier to customize than Bootstraps menu.

Much of what Bootstrap bundles I use already, just from third parties.
What's the big deal?
Do you want a one-stop shop? :)
"Less noise - more signal"
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#22 User is offline   phpnode 

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 03:16 PM

@jacmoe - The real, overwhelming factor is going to be themes. I think over the next few years we're going to see a huge rise in the number of bootstrap themes. Bootstrap themes will become as popular and as common as wordpress themes, if not more so because they're cross platform. This is going to be bootstrap's main advantage. Unless some more big companies get behind foundation, it will never gain the momentum and mindshare of bootstrap. There will never be an eco system around foundation. It's a dead horse in the race at this point, even if it's technically superior in some ways. Yii2.0 should use the "industry standard", jQuery is the industry standard javascript lib, bootstrap is now the industry standard css framework, like it or not.
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#23 User is offline   jacmoe 

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 09:17 PM

Don't be ridiculous.
"Less noise - more signal"
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#24 User is offline   VINAY Kr. SHARMA 

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 02:39 AM

I think Bootstrap will be fine.

This will help to rapid develop web 2.0 appliaction with Yii 2.0. Every one is switching to web 2.0.
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#25 User is offline   phpnode 

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 03:04 AM

View Postjacmoe, on 17 April 2012 - 09:17 PM, said:

Don't be ridiculous.


Which part did you find ridiculous?
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#26 User is offline   ekerazha 

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 03:11 AM

View Postjacmoe, on 17 April 2012 - 01:47 PM, said:

Do you want a one-stop shop? :)


Of course.

One consistent toolkit (Bootstrap) VS Many heterogeneous components (Foundation + 3rd party components).

Moreover, if the problem is the grid (which is pretty good in my opinion), it's easier to use Bootstrap (which is very modular) with a different grid, than using Foundation + many 3rd party components to fill the Foundation lack of components.
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#27 User is offline   jacmoe 

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 03:59 AM

View Postphpnode, on 18 April 2012 - 03:04 AM, said:

Which part did you find ridiculous?


It is indeed ridiculous to say that Twitter Bootstrap is the Industry Standard CSS Framework.

Not only ridiculous, but bollocks too. :)

It would be equivalent to saying that Git is the Industry Standard Versioning System, or that Ruby On Rails is the Industry Standard Web Development Platform.

Twitter Bootstrap is Okay, I guess..


What is industry standard is CSS2, CSS3, HTML5 - and so on.

If you want standard, why the heck is Twitter Bootstrap using LESS ???
When Sass/Compass is more widely used?
It's the default CSS framework for RoR. :P
That is an equally ridiculous statement, this time made by me.

I am not saying that you are ridiculous however. ;)

It's just this whole debacle about Bootstrap from Twitter..
It's getting really religious.

It's like listening to Git fanatics or RoR zealots.

Intolerable! :lol:
"Less noise - more signal"
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#28 User is offline   phpnode 

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 04:07 AM

Jacmoe - what would you say the "industry standard" responsive CSS framework is then? Bootstrap has the greatest mindshare, that is all I'm talking about here. By your definition, jQuery would not be industry standard either.

Remember that until about a week ago I was arguing on your side, for foundation. It's only when I actually used bootstrap that I saw the benefits and the future potential, have you used both enough that you can make a fair judgement?

I think the original reasons for preferring foundation (e.g. responsive grid etc) have been negated by the improvements in bootstrap 2.0
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#29 User is offline   jacmoe 

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 05:12 AM

I prefer to make use of best practices instead of relying on an in-house bootstrap framework to ensure a consistent look across Twitter's internal webapps.
Incorporating minimal and simplified elements like drop down menu, buttons and whatever - for convenience sake.

If you are satisfied with what Bootstrap provides, then by all means: use it.

You cannot yet talk about an industry standard when it comes to responsive web design - because the industry haven't yet come up with such thing.

The whole thing is in it's infancy - browse around for articles on the subject of RWD.

JQuery is a general purpose Javascript library. That's different. It's extremely versatile.
And it has been around long enough.

Can I name a CSS framework that I use?

Yes: Sass and Compass. :)
It rocks.
I can write semantic css which again means that I can drop in whatever css grid I want - even generate my own at runtime using Susy for Compass.
"Less noise - more signal"
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#30 User is offline   jacmoe 

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 05:17 AM

View Postphpnode, on 18 April 2012 - 04:07 AM, said:

Jacmoe - what would you say the "industry standard" responsive CSS framework is then?


CSS3, my friend. :)

With a little help from Modernizr and HTML5. ;)
"Less noise - more signal"
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#31 User is offline   ekerazha 

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 06:03 AM

View Postjacmoe, on 18 April 2012 - 05:17 AM, said:

CSS3, my friend. :)


CSS3 : PHP5 = <css framework> : Yii
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#32 User is offline   jacmoe 

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 06:35 AM

We cannot refer to anything as 'the industry standard' until the industry has agreed on a standard. ;)

View Postekerazha, on 18 April 2012 - 06:03 AM, said:

CSS3 : PHP5 = <css framework> : Yii


:lol:
"Less noise - more signal"
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#33 User is offline   phpnode 

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 06:48 AM

CSS3 + modernizr + html5boilerplate != Responsive CSS framework.


Jacmoe - I think you're being a little strict with your definition of "industry standard". How about this:

I'm building a web application based on Yii. I want to choose a responsive CSS framework, whatever my choice it should be well known and widely used so that it's easy to find people who can work with my system. What is the pragmatic choice? I would say at this point the answer is Bootstrap, and that is why it should be the default for Yii2.0.
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#34 User is offline   jacmoe 

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 06:55 AM

Yes, it's very convenient.

I would probably choose a responsive version of 960.gs - that is pretty much the 'industry standard' in css grid systems.

Choosing Twitter Bootstrap is your decision, and not a bad one - but it would IMO be very limiting if that was what Yii shipped with.

Then Blueprint is better because it's flexible and doesn't force anything on you: it provides a grid and some sensible default css 'settings'.

Bootstrap is more like a small starter kit.
IMO.

<trolling>((Saying that Twitter Bootstrap is the 'industry standard' for css frameworks, is like saying that Trabant is the industry standard for cars.. :P ))</trolling>
"Less noise - more signal"
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#35 User is offline   Psih 

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 07:16 AM

Reading the thread I came up with the thought:

I don't give a f**k what you decide to use, just make sure I can do my admin panel grids better than they are right now, I'm not forced with some CSS framework restrictions (I do not do template like websites at all - all my work is strictly non-standard stuff, so designs tend to end up non-standard so I have to adjust the layout). If Bootstrap can deal with my admin panel and the same time I can build a fully custom design without hacking it - be it.
Just remember - I do not use any CSS framework at the moment, so choose one that actually has good documentation :)
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#36 User is offline   Haensel 

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 08:27 AM

I think we could break this discussion down into two points:

1. We want Yii to become better (especially when it comes to visual designs)
2. we want Yii to grow (not the code but the community ;) )

Point 1: I think we all agree that both Foundation and Bootstrap would make Yii a better and more hipster compliant framework :)
Point 2: While focusing on CSS standards and nice framework features we almost forgot about another argument: The easier it becomes for a newcomer to build a cool looking app with Yii (without prior knowledge) the more likely she/he will choose it and this will be beneficial for all of us. I love Yii and I want its community to grow. And design plays a very significant role in such a case. Make people fall in love with Yii by enabling them to create professional looking sites in no time. In my opinion this point would go to Bootstrap.
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#37 User is offline   ekerazha 

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 09:52 AM

View Postjacmoe, on 18 April 2012 - 06:55 AM, said:

<trolling>((Saying that Twitter Bootstrap is the 'industry standard' for css frameworks, is like saying that Trabant is the industry standard for cars.. :P ))</trolling>


Dude, you don't need to nest <trolling> tags, they are already opened for all your posts :lol:
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#38 User is offline   jacmoe 

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 09:52 AM

Let the complete newbies use CodeIgniter.

So that those of us who appreciate that Yii is a non-bloated PHP Framework can enjoy it.
There are already addons for both of these 'competing' frameworks..

All I ask of Yii is this:

1) Semantic CSS - CSS3 with fallback for older browsers (see next point)
2) Full HTML5 support with Modernizr as fallback.

That's all.

Extensions were made to 'extend' Yii.
And that's the way I think it should be.

Feel free to create an Easy-Yii bundle.
I think it sounds like a great idea.

But why you'd want this come bundled with the framework is beyond me. :)

I started this discussion I think, with my request to replace Blueprint with something more modern.

We already have well-maintained extension for both Bootstrap and Foundation - so we have it: right now.
Should it become bundled with Yii?
No.

Yii is like a Sushi knife: elegant tool in the right hands.
It's not a Swiss Army Knife - and I hope that it never becomes one.

If it does, there's enough PHP frameworks out there to shake a stick at - muhaha. ;)
"Less noise - more signal"
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#39 User is offline   Haensel 

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 09:54 AM

View Postjacmoe, on 18 April 2012 - 09:52 AM, said:

Let the complete newbies use CodeIgniter.


:lol:
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#40 User is offline   jacmoe 

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 09:58 AM

View Postekerazha, on 18 April 2012 - 09:52 AM, said:

Dude, you don't need to nest <trolling> tags, they are already opened for all your posts :lol:


From one troll to the other. :D

I just have to do something when someone is being wrong on the internet.:P
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