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UI components standardization

#81 User is offline   phpnode 

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Posted 03 March 2012 - 02:22 PM

View Postekerazha, on 03 March 2012 - 11:23 AM, said:

  • Bootstrap 2 can replace jQuery UI as UI toolkit.



No, it can't. Here's a few of the things missing from bootstrap:

Draggable
Droppable
Resizable
Selectable
Sortable
Datepicker
Progressbar

Saying "but some of those are HTML5 so we don't need them" is not an excuse, it will be a long time before they are supported natively by all browsers.

So to support those things, you need jQuery UI anyway. And if we base everything else on bootstrap, that means that anyone wanting to use something other than bootstrap is screwed. We should continue to bless jQuery and jQuery UI, but the default CSS framework definitely needs to be optional, not required. I personally think foundation is a better option than bootstrap, but I wouldn't advocate forcing it on anyone, just like bootstrap should not be forced on me
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#82 User is offline   ekerazha 

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Posted 04 March 2012 - 03:58 AM

View Postphpnode, on 03 March 2012 - 02:22 PM, said:

No, it can't. Here's a few of the things missing from bootstrap:

Draggable
Droppable
Resizable
Selectable
Sortable
Datepicker
Progressbar

Saying "but some of those are HTML5 so we don't need them" is not an excuse, it will be a long time before they are supported natively by all browsers.

So to support those things, you need jQuery UI anyway.


Progressbar: http://twitter.githu...s.html#progress

Other things are missing, just like jQuery UI lacks many Bootstrap components, but in my opinion the most important ones are covered. On the contrary, Foundation lacks many components.

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And if we base everything else on bootstrap, that means that anyone wanting to use something other than bootstrap is screwed. We should continue to bless jQuery and jQuery UI, but the default CSS framework definitely needs to be optional, not required. I personally think foundation is a better option than bootstrap, but I wouldn't advocate forcing it on anyone, just like bootstrap should not be forced on me

You are not forced to use anything, just like you are not forced to use jQuery UI or Blueprint. However, if you want to keep jQuery UI, I think that jQuery Mobile should be included as well.

Note: I don't want to impose anything, I'm here since the first alpha version of Yii and I think that Yii would be a better product if it standardizes the default template and components (which you can change) above Bootstrap 2.

This post has been edited by ekerazha: 04 March 2012 - 04:25 AM

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#83 User is offline   phpnode 

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Posted 04 March 2012 - 06:36 AM

You're right, foundation doesn't include these components, this is exactly the point, delegate this responsibility to jQuery UI which is a LOT more widely known and mature than bootstrap. If you make bootstrap the blessed CSS framework, you have to support 2 different types of autocomplete, 2 different types of tab widget etc. It's overhead the core framework does not need.

If you're so inclined you can use a jQuery UI bootstrap theme, will there be a foundation theme for bootstrap widgets? Never.

We don't need jQuery mobile at all imho.
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#84 User is offline   ekerazha 

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Posted 04 March 2012 - 10:32 AM

View Postphpnode, on 04 March 2012 - 06:36 AM, said:

You're right, foundation doesn't include these components, this is exactly the point, delegate this responsibility to jQuery UI which is a LOT more widely known and mature than bootstrap.

There are overlaps between jQuery UI and Foundation (i.e. Tabs). Just consolidate everything above Bootstrap 2.
Also, I could say that Bootstrap is a lot blah blah blah than Zurb Foundation. jQuery UI is simply older.

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If you make bootstrap the blessed CSS framework, you have to support 2 different types of autocomplete, 2 different types of tab widget etc. It's overhead the core framework does not need.

This is a non-existent problem if you remove jQuery UI from the package.

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If you're so inclined you can use a jQuery UI bootstrap theme, will there be a foundation theme for bootstrap widgets? Never.

I don't care about "themes". I don't care about sticking a Ferrari logo on a Volkswagen.

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We don't need jQuery mobile at all imho.

Welcome to the mobile era.
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#85 User is offline   phpnode 

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Posted 04 March 2012 - 12:04 PM

I dont know if you're trolling or being willfully ignorant.

Bootstrap is not something everyone wants

Bootstrap cannot replace jquery ui, it doesnt offer the same features

If we bless bootstrap and its widgets, we have to support 2 different sets of components

I dont care that you dont care about themes, other people do

there is no need for jquery mobile, at all, what are you talking about?
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#86 User is offline   schmunk 

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Posted 04 March 2012 - 12:16 PM

To dump this idea one more time :)

Yii should only provide abstract classes for UI components, eg. superset of jQueryUI, bootstrap and zurb, just as a comprehensive collection (UITabs, UISlider, UIResizeable, ...) They may render very basic fallbacks, like a simple text input for a slider.
Now, you're able to plug-in your own UI collection which is coded against this 'interface', Yii i.e. would currently provide jQueryUI as a default.


But, this is only the user-interface widget part of your site. You still need your grid CSS. As ekerazha mentioned you're able to remove all the javascript stuff and use bootstrap just as a grid, see here.

And for the themes, you we could develop a solution based on jacmoe's ideas with LESS. I personally would just like to see a theme manager which handles the inclusion of css (and js?) files, so that I would not have to update my views files, when using another theme. For sure I would need a 'LESS translation' file which translates the CSS in my view files onto the CSS classes in the new theme.
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#87 User is offline   ekerazha 

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Posted 04 March 2012 - 12:36 PM

View Postphpnode, on 04 March 2012 - 12:04 PM, said:

I dont know if you're trolling or being willfully ignorant.

It's a common practice for incompetent people to accuse others of "trolling" and make personal attacks instead of constructively discussing the topic.

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Bootstrap is not something everyone wants

That's not a problem, nobody would be forced to use it. Nothing pleases everybody.

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Bootstrap cannot replace jquery ui, it doesnt offer the same features

Bootstrap can replace most of the jQuery UI components and can also add many new components, a responsive grid etc.

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If we bless bootstrap and its widgets, we have to support 2 different sets of components

Just drop jQuery UI and support Bootstrap. It was said that backward compatibility is not a Yii 2 priority.

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I dont care that you dont care about themes, other people do

I suggest to use Bootstrap 2 (and I think that there's people who agree with me, as I often find positive votes for my posts). You replied that I can use a Bootstrap-like theme for jQuery UI. Then I said that "themes" are not the point here. You can keep arguing about "themes" with yourself.

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there is no need for jquery mobile, at all, what are you talking about?

I'm talking about the fact that development for mobile platforms is very important and if you don't replace jQuery UI with a responsive "boilerplate" like Bootstrap (or Foundation... but I'd prefer Bootstrap 2 for the reasons that I've already explained), you should at least complete the jQuery gui family with jQuery Mobile.
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#88 User is offline   ekerazha 

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Posted 04 March 2012 - 12:37 PM

View Postschmunk, on 04 March 2012 - 12:16 PM, said:

But, this is only the user-interface widget part of your site. You still need your grid CSS. As ekerazha mentioned you're able to remove all the javascript stuff and use bootstrap just as a grid, see here.

Exactly
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#89 User is offline   phpnode 

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Posted 04 March 2012 - 12:54 PM

With one breath you say "no one would be forced to use bootstrap", with the next you say "drop jQuery UI and just use bootstrap components", this is why I can't tell if you're trolling or not, your argument does not make sense.

You're missing the point about themes, if I want to use foundation and Yii only supports bootstrap components, i am screwed. If Yii supports jQuery UI components you are free to drop them into bootstrap, or foundation, with neither being worse off. I only mention themes because there is a jQuery UI theme for bootstrap available, so you can drop that into your sites if you're really craving that bland, generic bootstrap look.


jQuery mobile is not required because I think whatever we choose will come with a responsive grid, so what's the advantage of including that with the core framework?


Anyway, I will stop going on about this for now, I'm sure the Yii team will make the right decision.
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#90 User is offline   ekerazha 

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Posted 04 March 2012 - 01:13 PM

View Postphpnode, on 04 March 2012 - 12:54 PM, said:

With one breath you say "no one would be forced to use bootstrap", with the next you say "drop jQuery UI and just use bootstrap components", this is why I can't tell if you're trolling or not, your argument does not make sense.

Contextualize.

I suggest that Yii could use Bootstrap, but in the end people isn't forced to use it.

Quote

You're missing the point about themes, if I want to use foundation and Yii only supports bootstrap components, i am screwed. If Yii supports jQuery UI components you are free to drop them into bootstrap, or foundation, with neither being worse off. I only mention themes because there is a jQuery UI theme for bootstrap available, so you can drop that into your sites if you're really craving that bland, generic bootstrap look.

No, because nothing prevents you from downloading and use Foundation or every other boilerplate. I'm talking about the default template and the bundled components, but nothing prevents you from using other components. Moreover, I'm talking about Bootstrap, I'm not talking about the Bootstrap "look". I don't suggest Bootstrap because of its "look".

I suggest Bootstrap because in my opinion it would be a good choice to standardize and consolidate some heterogeneous Yii components (Blueprint, jQuery UI) under the umbrella of a unified boilerplate.

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jQuery mobile is not required because I think whatever we choose will come with a responsive grid, so what's the advantage of including that with the core framework?

I've already replied to this.
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#91 User is offline   Jaggi 

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Posted 11 March 2012 - 07:36 AM

Dropping jQuery UI makes no sense it offers way more than bootstrap. Saying "bootstap offers most the stuff in jQuery UI" doesn't cut it and is not the same as saying "it can replace all jQuery ui functionality". Also jQuery UI is in heavy and constant development where as now new features can be added and updated that won't be the case if you drop it. I suggest just keeping it KISS, use jQuery UI because as we've already seen in Yii currently; using non standard plugins to offer functionality is a train reck (CStarRating anyone?).
See my development site @ www.CodeTheInter.net (BETA)

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#92 User is offline   schmunk 

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Posted 11 March 2012 - 08:04 AM

As far as I can tell jQuery UI and Bootstap 2 play very well together, I've experienced no problems so far and Bootstrap itself uses jQuery plugins.

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#93 User is offline   ekerazha 

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Posted 11 March 2012 - 11:10 AM

View PostJaggi, on 11 March 2012 - 07:36 AM, said:

Dropping jQuery UI makes no sense it offers way more than bootstrap. Saying "bootstap offers most the stuff in jQuery UI" doesn't cut it and is not the same as saying "it can replace all jQuery ui functionality". Also jQuery UI is in heavy and constant development where as now new features can be added and updated that won't be the case if you drop it. I suggest just keeping it KISS, use jQuery UI because as we've already seen in Yii currently; using non standard plugins to offer functionality is a train reck (CStarRating anyone?).


If you need a feature which jQuery UI provides while Bootstrap 2 doesn't (DatePicker?), you can add jQuery UI to your own project, we can't add everything to the base package.

Merging zii to yii was the worst move ever.
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#94 User is offline   phpnode 

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Posted 11 March 2012 - 11:33 AM

View Postekerazha, on 11 March 2012 - 11:10 AM, said:

If you need a feature which jQuery UI provides while Bootstrap 2 doesn't (DatePicker?), you can add jQuery UI to your own project, we can't add everything to the base package.



Way to miss the point, jQuery UI does a LOT more than bootstrap. If we're going to support one, it should be jQuery UI. Not bootstrap. Boostrap = restrictive, jQuery UI = less restrictive. What is so hard to grasp about this concept?
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#95 User is offline   ekerazha 

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Posted 11 March 2012 - 12:11 PM

View Postphpnode, on 11 March 2012 - 11:33 AM, said:

Way to miss the point, jQuery UI does a LOT more than bootstrap.

The opposite ;)
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#96 User is offline   phpnode 

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Posted 11 March 2012 - 03:05 PM

View Postekerazha, on 11 March 2012 - 12:11 PM, said:

The opposite ;)


Gah,

Posted Image

Bootstrap is a CSS framework, with some simplistic jQuery widgets thrown in. jQuery UI is a dedicated collection of interface widgets, and as such these widgets are much richer and comprehensive than those included in Bootstrap. Bootstrap is not a competitor to jQuery UI, it's not in the same league, apples vs oranges. So it makes absolutely no sense, at all, to advocate dropping the widely known, widely used, widely extended jQuery UI for Bootstrap, just because it is "cool" at the moment. This doesn't mean that the default output of ./yiic webapp can't be bootstrap, just that we should continue to bless and support jQuery UI.
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#97 User is offline   Rodrigo Coelho 

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Posted 11 March 2012 - 03:33 PM

Is there any chance you are both right?
With different perspectives and different goals in mind?
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#98 User is offline   ekerazha 

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Posted 11 March 2012 - 03:44 PM

View Postphpnode, on 11 March 2012 - 03:05 PM, said:

Gah,

Posted Image

Old but it's always nice.

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This doesn't mean that the default output of ./yiic webapp can't be bootstrap

jQuery UI would hardly be an alternative here, since it lacks the typography etc. goodness of Bootstrap.

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Bootstrap is a CSS framework, with some simplistic jQuery widgets thrown in. jQuery UI is a dedicated collection of interface widgets, and as such these widgets are much richer and comprehensive than those included in Bootstrap. Bootstrap is not a competitor to jQuery UI, it's not in the same league, apples vs oranges. So it makes absolutely no sense, at all, to advocate dropping the widely known, widely used, widely extended jQuery UI for Bootstrap, just because it is "cool" at the moment. [...]

I'm saying that most of the jQuery UI components, most commonly used components, can be replaced by Bootstrap and Bootstrap can also be used to replace the Blueprint CSS so we could unify and standardize the base components under the umbrella of Bootstrap. In my opinion more specific components that you can find in jQuery UI and you cannot find in Bootstrap, could be moved outside the Yii base package. I don't think this is a difficult concept to understand.
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#99 User is offline   Newerton 

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Posted 11 March 2012 - 03:55 PM

+1 Bootstrap
http://twitter.github.com/bootstrap/
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#100 User is offline   phpnode 

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Posted 11 March 2012 - 04:02 PM

View Postekerazha, on 11 March 2012 - 03:44 PM, said:

I'm saying that most of the jQuery UI components, most commonly used components, can be replaced by Bootstrap and Bootstrap can also be used to replace the Blueprint CSS so we could unify and standardize the base components under the umbrella of Bootstrap.


And everyone who doesn't want to use bootstrap gets screwed because jQuery UI is no longer officially supported. I just think it's obvious that you shouldn't let your CSS framework dictate your JS framework.

Anyway, I'm done wasting my time arguing with you, your arguments are nonsensical (zii is bad but enforcing bootstrap on everyone is good, wtf?) I'm sure your proposal will never be adopted.
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